I need help countering certain strats

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Fri, 21 May 2010 00:17:06 +0000

I certainly do thank you all for this wiki so much. I apologize for any implication as to what you do or don't owe anyone. Naturally, you don't owe anyone anything. You have been fantastic and as a lousy DS'er, I would never have gotten anywhere in the game without this wiki that you have created and used as a forum to share the many hundreds of hours of work you've done to obtain the information.

It is my stupidity that caused this and I am sorry. You constantly share all your efforts. It's just I think I got over zealous about this, because there were posts where people asked for help and were ridiculed (not by you or anyone involved with work on the wiki) and then others were saying they were told how to do it and not to share it-again not by you or LC.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Thu, 20 May 2010 23:05:56 +0000

Well I for one say thank you and will leave it at that. Looking forward to hearing what you guys came up with!

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Thu, 20 May 2010 20:29:20 +0000

The more of these posts I read the less enthused about the prospect of revealing it I get.
I can't be held responsible for the fact that LC went ahead and revealed there was a technique known to us both LONG before we were ready to even test it, let alone try and explain to people who, for the record, haven't exactly been very successful in thinking for themselves and working out their own technique and instead spam threads calling us 'elitist' and criticising how what we are doing is against the spirit of the wiki when LC and I have put more into this wiki than practically anyone else.
I had no intention of 'dangling' anything out there or frustrating anyone, and I've been entirely honest about how far along we are with regards to actually being able to detail it all on here.
If you want to know so badly that you cannot wait until he and I have worked out the best method of doing it (because it does vary from situation to situation) and have got enough evidence and independent tests to prove it is definately true, then go on DS, find a pushlocker and spend a couple of hundred hours trying to figure out how to do it yourself.
In case you haven't noticed, we are literally giving away the massive advantage we have managed to get with this technique by explaining it to everyone, until he first posted in this thread people had no idea it was even possible and had given up trying.
What more do you want?

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Thu, 20 May 2010 19:28:53 +0000

Just because it may be unreliable and not tournament tested doesn't mean it might at least be something others can try and help to verify.

Of course, it is up to you what you choose to share or not to share, but the suspense is killing me. I do believe you have an idea what to do.

I mean no insult or disrespect here.

I edited this because I shouldn't have posted any demanding message in the first place.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Wed, 19 May 2010 07:19:27 +0000

Yeah, it never did emerge did it.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Wed, 19 May 2010 03:13:26 +0000

Are we ever going to hear LC and Ilkar's little secret on getting out of a push combo?

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 19:33:40 +0000

1. If you're doing the blocking thrust… you can't actually be BSed as long as you're locked on to your opponent and not moving forward (they may be able to BS you, but you will NOT take damage like 99% of the time). You basically can't take damage when your shield is raised from a BS providing you're locked on you your opponent and not moving.

2. Yep.

3. Parrying is a mixed bag against katanas. If they spam push combos into a raised shield you can easily punish them with a parry. Also, the running slash can be often parried (but it's quite difficult to time).

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 11:21:49 +0000

Will do, you'll get an invite soon.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 03:53:28 +0000

I would agree with using a large shield as katana's have horrible gaurd break. When I use my dex build however I always carry other weapons to deal with scraping spear turtles, Hiding behind a wall of steel doesn't always work to your advantage.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 03:36:34 +0000

Fair enough, also if you have a chat room send me an invite. (Saves time rather than to send messages) & I dont have you added Lightning, if you may please send a request, Thank You.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 02:07:43 +0000

I shall rephrase. My post above presents methods to overcome dual katana useage not avoid alltogether (That's what is really important). In my experience, the phalanx character seems to fare well against dual katanas. Often people dismiss the use of a sturdy shield. For this situation, I would reccommend it.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 01:42:54 +0000

The first one, you aren't escaping it, you just aren't getting caught in it.
Same goes for the second…
Third one has been discussed and dismissed, it isn't the way LC and I discovered.
Should have results for you in the next 2 days.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 01:38:34 +0000

There are three ways to escape the combo that I have used (And have had used against me). These are listed in order of most reliable to least…

1. Scraping Spear and Tower shield combo is extremely effective so long as you stab carefully and don't get backstabbed.

2. Acid Cloud is pretty rudimentary, however the cloud is easily avoided by good PvP players.

3. Parrying is least reliable due to lag. If it executed it's usually the death of the other player *_* ;The parrying method happened against me when I was using a dual wielding strategy. Ilkar mentioned this as well I believe. I was in shock for a while, but it's nice to see that there is a counter to every attack setup in DS :)

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 01:15:50 +0000

I will do happily. Lightning and I haven't got together yet to test it, but I duelled someone rather well known, Pepero-Tom, and was able to use it 3 times in a row against him. He did win in the end though (admittedly with an amazing riposte).

Lightning and I are trying to refine it, there are a few ways you can execute it and I want to know which is most practical and effective.
Also, Signius, I'll test it with you after I have refined it, for reasons you will understand when you see it.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Tue, 04 May 2010 00:51:04 +0000

If possible Ilkar or Lightning, I would like one of you to test this pushlock evasion strategy on myself.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 22:32:29 +0000

LMAO! I'm just speaking the truth.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 22:29:54 +0000

It would defintley still be good, but all the katana players would need to ditch Warding and go back to Curse Weapon. It wouldn't be game-breakingly good like it is now.

I don't hold anything against katana players that use push combos, but I remind those who do that it's easily the best PvP setup, and performs incredibly well against almost any other setup. But, that may all soon become a thing of the past.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 22:26:41 +0000

you…..are….my….hero

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 22:25:11 +0000

Not to bash on any katana users that are pushers, but pushing is for no skilled cheapo's! The only time I push is on accident, I've practiced the pushlock and got it down to a science, but 1)It really looks stupid when you continuously do it, and 2)As stated before there it's cheap, show your skill and fight like a man.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 22:21:41 +0000

without the push katanas would still be fairly good.

-long range
-slashes usually ruin backstab attempts
-running attack is deceptively long ranged
-he can still slash you a couple of times even without the push
-very stamina conservative

without the push combo, the weapon is still one of the best choices for pvp…though now its not cheap xD

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 17:35:05 +0000

oo, a way to defeat the most annoying of pvpers with katana pushing and slashing. *snickers* hope it does work to counter katana pushers so their game gets ruined xD just like they do when invading.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 16:14:57 +0000

Thanks Ikar, I'll be waiting for the good news.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 15:19:58 +0000

Okay everyone, especially EWGF, listen up.
I just discovered that the method I found out by accident how to do it is the same one that LC found out on his own, so we have a correlation.
It has DEFINATELY without lag worked for me on 3 separate occasions, and everyone by now should know how to use terrain and lag spikes to get out of a stunlock, so I assure you it has nothing to do with either.
LC and I intend on testing this further, we were jokingly holding out on each other just to see and were amazed to find we'd accidentally done the same thing and had it work without the influence of lag.
If we can confirm it to work the majority of the time without lag, I will post it up here in giant neon letters as a service to the community.
Either way if it even works half of the time it still means half the deaths from a pushlock user, so I promise you will be hearing more about it.
We will even try and get it on video.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 09:21:52 +0000

Hmm, claymore push combo isn't that good IMO, but then again it could have its uses in other ppl's arsenal of weapons.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 08:53:08 +0000

well this game has been out for a while i couldnt imagine another strat coming into fruition that someone hasn't tried already

maybe someone could try a claymore push combo and see if it works

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 07:58:12 +0000

BBS has a good amount of durability, so breaking it with acid cloud would do the trick, just not the scraper spear cause that takes a while. As for push locking, I think I'ma see if I can come up with a build based upon some forms of push locking, but not with the typical katanas……and I say this for a lot of ppl that the katana push is getting old……..stop going by the book with katana push, upset the established order and try something new already………its kinda like singing the same old song over and over……..(not trying to sound like I'm complaining)

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 07:18:23 +0000

don't give them any rest, they will not have enough stamina that way to even think about completing the combo

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 07:15:20 +0000

I just play possum until the LW wears off then go in for the kill. Or just use a large sword and crack skulls right from the get go.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 07:12:49 +0000

Your absolutely right, you can push with any weapon. That being said though, what other weapon does as much damage as a katana and can still get off 6-7 hits? (depending if the first is a swing or a push) I think the pushlock from a katana is definitely worse than most other weapons in the sense that it is much harder to get out of. The best thing I have found to do is roll to the side which is still a long shot.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 07:08:28 +0000

As far as dealing with BBS, it's recomended to break them. I probably shouldn't say this given that it's counterproductive to BBS-users (like me) but Acid Cloud works a charm on them, and leave us guys with a high luck build few other options. (Expect for repairing them in a fight, which i can do in a snap)
But hey, somebody's got to keep us in check. :-)

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 06:53:02 +0000

lol, about this whole katana push crud, u can push with any weapon. I tried using several swords and basically I did push swing over and over and it works just like katana push. As for giving out how to get out of a push lock, go online into pvp fighting and LEARN how to get out of it urself so that u can perhaps spread it in the community of DS Wiki, or keep it to urself so that Ilkar doesn't kill ya for saying it. *chuckle*

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 06:20:31 +0000

I really don't think that only one, two people in the entire community of demon's souls players know how to escape a pushlock combo

the info would be evolutionary(to me atleast), and i dont get why someone wouldn't give that information out.

Also, that bit about the the school of PvP or whatever, i can't tell if that was sarcasm or not

If it isn't sarcasm i would love to participate

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 06:01:31 +0000

It's not up to me, unfortunately. I would share this info if it were not for Ilkar holding this over my head. I actually think he'll ban me if I give it away…

I can't tell when he's serious or not half of the time, though, so we'll see when he gets on.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 05:45:16 +0000

I'm reluctant to say this, but, you really need to share this info, providing it's proven (or it least once it's proven and/or confirmed by others). Holding on to something that will shift the entire metagame isn't very cool at all.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 05:26:34 +0000

One thing before I go off to bed:

You really need to stop acting so high and mighty. This is not only the first time, wait, maybe even the SECOND time you've tried to instigate a fight. We're all in this forum to participate and discuss, and yet it seems that all you want to do is argue and moan and whine. Just because it's not what you would do, or somebody voices their opinion on something , or even gets something wrong, doesn't give you the right to bash them to the end of time. Yes, I'm a moderator. Yes, I play and I'm not as experienced as other players. But I do know that when you DID see me get "owned," I was testing out a new build (Thanks Devon, for giving me the souls to level up just that fast) and experimenting with different weapons.

The way I got out of it is unorthodox, yes, but it worked. I did get locked into another one after that, though, so it was one second "OMG NO WAY" and another second "Damn." I am almost 100% sure though, that neither a flawed execution or a lag spike occured during the katana stunlock push.

Oh, and before I forget, claymore: I don't care what you think.

Those are my two cents; take it or leave it.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 05:02:02 +0000

I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 04:54:01 +0000

Cause if the pushers know they been found out, then they'd be forced to adapt and therefor weakening his own stance and have to learn another way to kill em.

Thats my senseless take on the situation if it were to exsist.

The other possibility could be it doesn't exsist and he and Ilkar are just pulling your leg.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 04:47:49 +0000

I'm not saying you can't get out of it… but it sure as hell baffles me if you can. After fighting katanas five hundred times or so I've never been able to so much as breathe through a push combo that was properly executed, but I'm all ears for what you've got. I've heard crazy things before that turned out to be true, so I've always got my ear to the ground for good PvP info.

Also, katanas are notorious for 1-shotting smurfs/BPs in a single combo much akin to LW BBS/Cursed poles (don't feel bad LC). However, unlike pole/BBS, kat push under basically any condition is inescapable (whereas BBS/poles hinge on range, DH stun, hidden factors etc).

The only two ways I've seen out once a combo begins are:

- Flawed execution
- Lag spikes (yes, this can actually stop a push combo)

Why would you bogart such information?

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 02:59:25 +0000

EWGF has spoken, there is no way to get out of the combo.

Though i would love to hear what the mighty ikar has to say about it.

LC i saw you get owned by katana combo twice…..twice so i don't really think you know how

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 02:48:39 +0000

ahhh how do you get out of the combo?

then ill just pull out my DBS+5, that and the great axe are the only decent counters. Maybe claymore, but idk

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 02:39:49 +0000

It can't be interrupted. Not when done right, at least. Maybe with a catastrophic amount of lag…but somebody would be kicked before they had time to kill you anyway ^_^

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 02:27:23 +0000

Boy, I'd like to know this great secret to escape once the first push lands.

Rapier/Spear while-blocking pokes punish the combo severely. Also, any push following an off-hand swing is quite easy to parry with a setup parry (block the off-hand swing, and immediatley parry the following push). But, I see no way to stop it once it's begun. To my knowledge it can't be interrupted once the 1st hit lands.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 00:44:14 +0000

You heard Ilkar. No revealing until we get our little "academy" up and running.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 00:32:05 +0000

LC, no teaching the kids my little secrets!
At least until we get our PvP school up and running, Mr Deputy Leader.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 00:22:00 +0000

Are you willing to share this valuable nugget?

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 00:21:45 +0000

and? how?

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 00:18:43 +0000

There IS a way to get out of a katana push lock. It's just that not everybody knows it (probably barely anybody).

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sun, 02 May 2010 00:08:12 +0000

Haha!

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 01 May 2010 22:03:33 +0000

And I quote "its your fault for getting stuck in a katana combo" maybe you should take your own advice, nOOb.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:05:57 +0000

Now i know what to use…..scraping spear

If they consider my scraping spear cheap, then i have no problem considering katana is cheap either
wow….no way to get out of a push thats dumb…

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:39:56 +0000

BBS is one of the scariest weapons in the game. i fear it even more than DBS as it can do great damage and is pretty fast swinging. Your best chance when facing BBS is to evade. A lot of BBS damage comes from light weapon. If you can evade long enough for the buff to wear off you have a much better chance at survival. Even without light weapon, a BBS can do some hefty damage with its R1 chainso always be wary.
Try to use large weapons vs BBS. It is only a standard straight sword so it doesnt have the reach to contend with poles and large swords n such. On the other hand if you are using a small faster weapon you can try to jam your opponent and interupt his attacks. Kilij is great for this as it does good damage and is crazy fast. Just make sure you dotn drain your entire stamina bar so you can roll away if needed. You just have to know when to get inside, mistime your rush and youll eat a swing to the teeth which unless you enjoy going to the dentist, i dotn suggest.

Katana push is a whole different story. There are lots of strategys for avoiding push, but once your stuck in it, youre stuck in it until your enemy lets you out. I beleive they you can be pushed throughy our sheild, though i cant confirm this.Your best bet again is to keep your distance and again use a large weapon. be aware though that katana has decent range. I prefer to wait for the enemy to take a few swings then rush close enough for a few swings of my sais. then fall back. Push is quick so overly aggresive styles can run into a lot of trouble. As such i dont recommend 1handed weapons unless they are fast enough to jam your enemy's attack and/or stunlock.

Another strategy, that will likely get you tons of hatemail is to break their weapons with scraping spear. katanas have low Dur (70) so it only takes a few strikes to shatter their blades and put them at a huge disadvantage.

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:17:15 +0000

thanks man

Should i just whip out my shield as soon as i see these guys?

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:11:20 +0000

not much you can do against katana push other than hope they run out of end before you run out of hp.

BBS can be rolled out of. You can try blocking but magic soaks through sheild and DSS doesnt have the hitres to eat the whoel chain. your best bet is to take the first swings on your shield then parry

Re: I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:06:30 +0000

help a brother out

I need help countering certain strats

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 09:43:26 +0000

Usually when I BP hunt in 4-1 i 2H a claymore or a mirdan hammer. I carry a DSS+5

I dont have a problem with anything but katana push, and the BBS combo

I dont know what to do to get out of the combo. Do i roll?Do i just take all the hits?Do i take out my shield as soon as i see them pull out their katana or bbs?