Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Summary:

Pretty sure this has been asked but i cant find it

Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 10 May 2010 18:31

So I got a Str build going and i have the Keel Smasher +4, I hit about 430 i think, havent tried it after i upgraded it to +4. I hear a lot about the meat cleaver being better because of the rolling animation and speed, but i don't care about speed, I want to know about DAMAGE comparison. My Str Character is currently at 40 Str, and i'm probably going to keep it at 40. So lets say you spend 24-27 stats into Meat cleaver to use it and strengthen it, What would do more damage, I do NOT want to know what would do more damage if you buff it, I just want to know what can do more Damage in 1 hit, 2 handed the weapon with a R2 swing.

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-

Last edited on 10 May 2010 18:35 by Yakul- Show more

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Anorack 10 May 2010 19:22

That's a good question. Let's see if I can give a good answer…

Keel Smasher+5 (DBS+5) does have some very nice starting damage at 280 with a high B scaling in strength, almost an A rank.
MC starts off with a 90/90/0 rating, a total of 180 base damage, but, it has an S/S/-/A scaling, an S in strength, dex and an A in faith.

So, though MC might start off 100 points lower in damage than DBS+5 it can quickly catch up, the downfall, ofcourse, is in spreading the stats (though you weren't interested in that).
In the end, once once you hit Dimishing Returns(DR), MC will most likely do more damage than DBS+5 cause of the spread in points makes it get more contributions in different areas even if one is already at the DR point. Where as DBS+5 will fall off and only game a trickling amount after DR's kick in for it.

Please note, this is just theorizing on my end, I have not done the testing or the math to prove it. Though I could probably prove it with my retired PvE character to see, I am just too lazy. Hope this helps.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 10 May 2010 21:11

Thanks for the info. I'm not quite sure about what DR really is but I have a good idea what you mean, But as I noted, You can only spend 26 stats for MC, since I only spent 26 on Str stat for my KS, this is because there will be a need for a other stats such as Vit, Int, Endur and Magic. But I will probably spend another 10 level on str to get it to 50. How ever now that I think about it, If you don't use magic and use a Faith MC build, it may work out in your favor if you use Black turpentine instead of Light weapon or Curse weapon to fill in the missing Damage from the Magic Buffs. If anyone can confirm these theories, it would be greatly appreciated.

Lol and laziness will kill us all!

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-

Last edited on 10 May 2010 21:14 by Yakul- Show more

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 10 May 2010 23:23

Correction, at +3 i'm already doing 460 dmg 2 handed, i'll probably top 500 at +5

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 10 May 2010 23:55

Update: Just made a Keel Smasher +5 with 526 dmg, with 40 str

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

LordDraco3 10 May 2010 23:59

At a mere 20 str (bare minimum to weild), SL 22, PBCT (supposed to lower your damage, right?) I was hitting the reaper's phantoms for 720 with an R2 attack with my DBS+5.

In pvp at this level (I invade 4-2, I get messages from SL 44's saying they can't even carry the DBS), I can 1 hit some people, though a good 80% will have at least a tiny sliver of health left after 1 hit. But they usually panic and try to run away for some grass…which usually spels their end quite quickly.

I used to play with the MC at bare minimum stats (for 1-handing), and could barely kill those phantoms with a 2-handed R2. Sometimes I didn't, wh my damage varied for some reason. Have not really touched the MC since those earlier characters of mine, so I just know that the DBS has a ludicrous amount of power at minimum str and +5. But even at +0 I am able to 1-shot phantoms with it.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Anorack 11 May 2010 00:03

That is cause the DBS+5 has a huge base damage 280, almost 300. So, at the starting amount, it will win out over MC, because it has a 100 more base damage than it.
However, with leveling the stats, MC will out do it, because of the two S ratings and the A. So, early on, DBS wins, once leveled, MC wins for damage power.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 11 May 2010 00:43

well thats the Theory Anorack, has any one actually tested it? And let say we cap at SL 120, what would do more damage if lets say we use the same amount of stats into str and split even for dex and str for MC, and same amount of Magic for light weapon and faith for the A stat. what would do more damage?

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Saturday Saint 11 May 2010 02:00

The MC does not have 180 base damage. It has 90 base physical and 90 base magical. If it had 180 base physical damage with two S scalings and an A scaling, it would be completely broken. There is a big difference. For one, the S ratings do not increase the magic damage, and Faith does not increase the physical damage. Additionally, it will be affected by both physical and magical defense. As it is, it's outclassed by the Crescent Axe for damage, and even moreso by the Great Axe, though the GAxe does sacrifice some range.

Meat Cleaver must split stats between Strength, Dexterity, and Faith to really meet its full potential. Even then, you aren't going to get as much out of cursing/lighting it. You won't have a high magic, and the base physical damage isn't as great as a GAxe/CAxe. Without Faith, the Magic Damage is completely useless, as it will be almost completely soaked up by a person's magic resist. Even with some faith, anything with high magic resist, including other Faith builds for PvP, will also annul it.

Since you already have 40 Strength, I'd suggest sticking to a DBS+5 which will greatly outdamage it, especially when cursed., or, if you like the playstyle of Meat Cleaver, grab a Crushing CAxe/GAxe +5.

If you plan on taking your character up to extremely high levels (200+), then you might want to switch out the GAxe/CAxe for a Meat Cleaver. With high levels of Strength, Dexterity, Magic, and Faith, it can absolutely destroy with iCat Light Weapon. However, the DBS will outdamage it at all levels when cursed. Although, I think it might be possible to eventually get a Quality Greatsword to outdamage the DBS, I'm not really sure.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

bLaCkShAd0w 11 May 2010 06:20

I totally agree, I have a pure strength build @ 125 I started with using the MC with cursed weapon, which was mediocre in terms of damage. I now switched to DBS +5 and crushing Great Axe +5 which severly out damage MC. Like Saturday Saint mentioned MC's true power comes into play at much higher levels because you can dump levels into all 3 stats and not ruin your build.

Last edited on 11 May 2010 06:20 by bLaCkShAd0w Show more

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Anorack 11 May 2010 06:29

Missed my point, the combined of the 2 90 damages is an 180 base damage line. Then it scales.

Here, I'll type out the simple math for you, 90+90=180.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Saturday Saint 11 May 2010 07:55

The sardonicism isn't necessary. I explained how considering it to have a 180 base damage is deceptive. The damage is split, which weakens the scaling and end damage output of the weapon.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Anorack 12 May 2010 01:07

That is not correct, though. The scaling isn't weakend, the S rating in Str and Dex is still an S and higher than a B. The fact is that it just affects the physical nature of the MC. The S's are not acting as lower rankings, with my character that has split stats of 31 st and 33 dex, the MC gains a total of 217 physical damage, if I remember right. He also has 24 Faith that gives an additional 46 or so magic damage to the weapon. With these 3 stats and their own ratings, they combine for a total of 263 additional damage. The DBS+5 is unlikely to come near matching that in scaling with a B ranking. Is the MC good for a pure strength build? Not at all, cause, it is not a weapon suited to that kind of build. It's a weapon suited more towards balanced stats. If you take a DBS+5 at 40 str it will beat out the MC easily if there is no Dex or Faith to support more damage into the MC. Now, if you have 40 str, dex and faith, the MC will outclass the DBS+5 by a lot. This is due to the fact that the MC has much higher scaling and will quickly gain then surpass the DBS+5 even with it starting off with 100 less damage.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Saturday Saint 12 May 2010 02:01

A scaling is based off of a weapon's base damage. Two S rankings on a 90 damage weapon will not outrank a B scaling on 280 base damage with a similar amount of stat investment. Ever.

Let's assume you're at SL 712. That is, afterall, where MC will have the biggest advantage over DBS, assuming you don't dump dex/faith and ignore strength at lower levels.

At these stats, the Meat Cleaver deals 90 + 306 physical damage, and 90 + 98 magical damage. 396 physical, and 188 magical. Added together, you get 584 damage.

A Dragon Bone Smasher +5 will deal over 500 physical damage, though I cannot find the exact figure for 99 Strength. However, the damage is not split, and it will benefit much more from Cursing. The Meat Cleaver's magic damage will do absolutely nothing but act as a buffer for iCat Light Weapon.

Even then, a Cursed DBS+5 should be able to shove out more damage per hit than a Lit Meat Cleaver.

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 11 May 2010 07:18

Thank you very much Saint for clearing everything up, But I lost my DBS+5, my ex friend stole it from me, after wanting to "test it". *insert bleeps here*

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Anorack 11 May 2010 07:38

What SL are you? I got 2 DBS on my character who is just collecting dust (not upgraded at all) that I can give you DBS

Re: Keel Smasher VS Meat Cleaver

Yakul- 16 May 2010 23:20

-Reviving the Thread-
So I got another DBS +5 now, and I'm currently at 40 Str, I'm going to cap my build off at 125 or 130, I have also 14 Dex and 16 Faith, I can bring my dex to 36-38 then I must cap off. If I were to grab the MC now, and scale my Dex, would I be hitting harder than the DBS? Including Cursed weapon buff. What I do know is I hit 971 dmg on an octo head with cursed weapon with my DBS+5 at NG+

---

4chan FTW! But Reddit is better. PSN: Yakul-